How should parents feel about the vaccine?

PROF CHANG: Hello, I'm Curtis Chang. I'm a theologian and a former pastor. And we here at Redeeming Babel have produced a series of videos to help Christians think about the vaccine. And one of the ways God helps Christians think is through trusted leaders in our faith and medical community. And one of those leaders is Dr. Jennie McLaurin. Dr. McLaurin has served for 30 years as a pediatrician and a leader in community healthcare in the U.S. and abroad. She now practices in Washington State, a population that has high numbers of vaccine hesitant families. She's also the author of a forthcoming book called, "Designed to Heal," a Christian reflection on how God has designed us for holistic health. And on top of that, Jenny is a mother of five. So Dr. McLaurin, thanks for taking a break from your busy life to join us.

DR. MCLAURIN: Thanks, Curtis. It's great to be with you.

PROF CHANG: So Dr. McLaurin, you deal with vaccine hesitant patients all the time. So narrate for us, what's a typical conversation between you and say a mother who's vaccine hesitant?

DR. MCLAURIN: Sure. Well, what I like to remind everybody of is that the practice of medicine is very relational. That's central to what we do. So as pediatricians, we are really dedicated to coming alongside families with them and collaborate with them and supportive healthy development of their children. So I don't focus initially on what is the problem or what's the disease or what's the condition, but rather, what is in this relationship that needs to be explored. So I'll ask a parent if they're vaccine hesitant, why and try to get to the bottom of it. And sometimes it takes several questions to really find out what their focal concern is. And sometimes it's not really their concern. It's the grandparent who isn't in the room or the other parent. That's important too. We try to understand how all those relationships impact the health decisions that they're making and address their real concerns with respect and answers. After I do that, and I'm sure I've heard their own story, well, then I feel like I've earned the right to share my story. And a lot of what we make decisions on is based on story and our life experiences. And I tell families I've literally seen everything we immunize against except for diptheria. I've worked abroad and in the U.S. and I've seen mothers weep for joy when their child can get a polio vaccine because the older child who's with them is forever paralyzed from experiencing polio. I've seen, unfortunately, more babies than I want to who have died of pertussis, whooping cough in the U.S. I've been at their bedside while they struggle to breathe. And I trained before Hib vaccine became available. And so, literally every week, we admitted babies with that form of meningitis. And more times than I can count, I watched babies pass away as I stood at their bedside, and it was gruesome. And the advent of those vaccines just made all of us rejoice. So I want parents to know that those diseases are very real and that vaccines are an incredible gift. Almost miraculous when you've watched the disease is devastating families. And I want parents to understand how much of their current freedom in the world that they experienced particularly in the U.S., and moving about as they choose in society is because of all the progress we've made in the last 50 years with vaccines. Quarantines were a regular part of my mom's life. And our grandparents regularly had pools closed in the summer against polio, camps get canceled, schools get shuttered, and their own homes have a quarantine sign on them, not allowing anybody to come in for a period of time. So what we see with the COVID restrictions really isn't new. It's just new to us in this generation because we've been so blessed by vaccines in the past. And the quickest way to get out of these quarantines and regulations is through safe and effective vaccination. And I would never ever ask a parent to agree to something that I think is more of a risk to their child than a benefit, even if it would help the community. I wouldn't ask them to do that. That's against pediatric ethics. The patient's safety always comes first. So that's some of what we talk about. That's our exchange that we have. And I find parents are better able to make informed decisions if they feel respected and heard in their own, in their own concerns.

PROF CHANG: Now, speaking of stories that you share, I forgot to ask you that one question we ask all of our guests which is your own story with the COVID vaccine. Have you been vaccinated?

DR. MCLAURIN: Oh yeah. I have been. And so has most of my immediate household has. I got the Moderna vaccine. So did my husband and my daughter, who's an adult, got the Pfizer vaccine. We all did great with it. We all had really sore arms. And then with the second vaccine, we had a little bit of fever, but that just told us our immune system was working. And I honestly, like I cried when I got the first one. I was just so relieved and happy. It was a world changing for me. I hadn't seen my mom, who's almost 97, in over a year. And I just saw the end of this horrible disease coming our way, so.

PROF CHANG: So with the COVID vaccine, we're moving to this phase where we're beginning to vaccinate teens. So speak to that question of why should we vaccinate teens, if, for many teens it's not a serious disease when they experience it?

DR. MCLAURIN: Yeah, that's a really timely question right now, as the ages are getting younger. While it's true that our experience so far shows that the disease isn't as bad in the younger, that's changing all the time and it's changing in a scary way. The new mutations are more and more aggressive towards youth, for reasons we don't understand other than the virus makes mutations so that it can last longer. And the more it isn't hosting itself in youth, the more of the mutations are becoming scarier. We're seeing effects in children's hearts and brains that we're unsure of what the long-term effects are gonna be. And so we no longer have the confidence that it's a mild disease overall in youth that we used to. It still is more than an adult's, but youth are still highly at risk. And we don't really know why. So there's no way to tell whether your child, who's gonna get vaccinated or not is gonna be the child that doesn't do well when they get sick.

PROF CHANG: So it sounds like we're seeing there's actually more longterm risk of remaining unvaccinated than we realized. Talk about the other side of that. What do we know about the fear about long-term side effects from the vaccine?

DR. MCLAURIN: Yeah, that's a good question. And that I think is what most people are worried about in terms if they're vaccine hesitant at this point is the long-term effects. And the good news is that the messenger RNA vaccines which are Pfizer and Moderna in our country, are really based on a really elegant but simple science. And it's just this little snippet of synthetic messenger RNA that's wrapped up in a fat globule when it gets delivered into your muscle, which is part of why it hurts. That is an art. Can't do anything other than tell yourself one time only to make this little protein that then your body makes antibodies against. And it's one and done. It's out. There's nothing left. So there is no residual of the vaccine to cause long-term harm. And other than your antibodies causing long-term harm, that's the only thing that possibly could. So we really felt super confident about it. It's so simple that way compared to the live viral vaccines of the past.

PROF CHANG: So then as a doctor, how do you advise your patients to balance these two different risks, the risk of being unvaccinated and this what seems like a very small risk of side effects from the vaccine? How should they think about these two risks?

DR. MCLAURIN: Yeah, I agree. It is a very small risk of side effects from the vaccine. So really minor. I personally have no concerns about dropping the age down to 12, which has just been dropped. And I think people need to be confident that we're always on the lookout for safety. So even though I can say, I have no concerns, if something happened, I feel quite confident that it would get reported. And in fact, it does. We have a national vaccine adverse response system, the VAERS system, and everything gets reported. If you have a rash, even though anybody could have a rash, everything's swelling, it all gets reported. So there's always somebody monitoring it. And the vaccine, the risk of a problem from the vaccine is statistically way less than the risk of having your child cross the street at a traffic light or ride a bike or play soccer. So, we all live with risk all the time. That's the thing. None of us have a risk-free life ever, and that's just part of being alive. So I think on balance right now, we just don't know what kind of infection somebody might get. If they do get the infection, the longer we wait, the worse it seems to get. So that to me is way riskier than getting a vaccine now. Waiting is a much higher roll of the dice.

PROF CHANG: So one of the things that seems to be confusing folks is that just medical information seems to be changing. And you hear this a lot of like, well, what can you trust? And so as a doctor, speak to that. Which sources of medical information should be trusted, and then also not be trusted?

DR. MCLAURIN: Yeah. That's a great question. And it is confusing, and it's particularly confusing in this time of instant communication and social media and the internet. And I know it's been very frustrating for people with all the changing information. It's frustrating for us as clinicians. I told everybody not to wear a mask, and then everybody to wear a mask, and I get that. I get how frustrating that is, but that doesn't mean that those experts are no longer trustworthy. What it means is they're transparent in their knowledge. And they're letting us know as they know more they're sharing that right away out of concern for the world. And I find that makes me trust them more. I'm reminded of what my medical school dean said when I graduated from medical school, and it stuck with me forever. He said, "Half of what all of you have learned is going to be found to be wrong. And the problem is, it's gonna take you your whole career to figure out what's in that wrong half." And that was so depressing after studying so hard, but he was telling us to be lifelong learners, to be humble, to be willing to be corrected, and to change our practice, improve as we go. And that's what I see the experts doing. They're saying, okay, now we know more. There's this and this. It's not that they were stupid or foolish or didn't know their science. It's that they were learning more as time went on. So I try to trust people that are like that, that are grounded in deep knowledge, that are experts in their field. And I applaud them for letting us know the changing knowledge as it goes. I don't listen to anything that smells political or biased when it comes to medical care. I'm very upset that this has become a political situation in our country, but we're all working hard to try to get past that. I wouldn't ask my pastor or my neighbor for surgical advice. And I don't ask my surgeon or my dentist for spiritual advice unless they're in my church. So I'm careful about who I asked for advice when it comes to a certain kind of expertise. And my own colleagues in medicine are from all walks of life, all faiths, all ethnicities. And we all agree on our medical evidence together. It's peer reviewed. It goes through many processes of review, and we all have confidence in that process. And that's really important. It's really important. And so that's what I do. I just tell families the simplest thing I know is Mayo Clinic has a great website. I use it all the time for families and the American Academy of Pediatrics for your children is a fabulous website. So don't look around at too many sites 'cause it just gets confusing. Just go for the experts.

PROF CHANG: So you raised a really good point that we really should go to medical experts for medical issues. And yet at the same time, some questions also transcend just being medical issue. And we actually get this a lot with the vaccine where some people actually react to us saying, why are you making this a Christian issue about vaccination? This is just purely a personal issue or maybe it's just purely a medical issue, but there shouldn't be anything Christian about the decision to get vaccinated. So, as a medical expert and a committed Christian who's written about the integration between faith and medicine, can you speak to that? Is there anything particularly Christian about the decision to get vaccinate?

DR. MCLAURIN: Yeah, and Curtis, you know, I could speak all day about that because my faith, and I hope everybody's faith is really integrated into our life and the choices that we make. But in terms of medicine, it's got such a rich history in the Christian faith, and as part of healing. And I just go back to the two greatest commandments and love God with your whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Obviously that getting vaccinated is, you can make an argument for neighbor love pretty clearly. That we are privileged and have the opportunity to bless the whole world by taking part in stopping a pandemic that won't stop without mass vaccination. It just won't. There's no such thing as herd immunity ever in a natural course of a disease. It has never happened. But also that scripture that says, "To him who much is given is much as expected." And so we're in that role of, at being given much. And so we are expected to step up. And when I think of loving God with my whole heart, soul, mind, and strength, I do think of my mind and my heart and using all that God's given us with our mind to make a good decision and with our heart to love as we're meant to love. So yeah, we may be strong and we may overcome COVID on our own, but that's not really the question here. And I see it as an act of worship to get vaccinated. I really do. And that probably sounds strange to people, but I do.

PROF CHANG: Dr. McLaurin, thank you so much for sharing both your spiritual and your medical wisdom here. Thank you for your work you're doing in the community as well.

DR. MCLAURIN: You're welcome, Curtis. Thank you. I'm just honored to be a part of this and really proud of you for what you're doing.

PROF CHANG: Thank you.